1.) Wild Bob - 09/24/2015

Ok, I admit it. I'm a bit down on the whole hunting video thing. I suppose it's safe to say that I am pretty critical about the whole reason many of the hunting videos I've seen are filmed, they way they are filmed, and what experience [U]anyone[/U] (hunter or nonhunter alike) walks away from a video feeling.

From what I gather; I think there are at least some members on here that are of the similar mind set (and if not, that is fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion)... I may not care for many hunting videos, and because of that I don't many; that is a personal choice.

That being said, I going to share a video link that I am inspired to share… (RARE!) But I've got to admit, in my opinion, this little video was done [I]very well [/I]and is worth watching for any one that wants to get a feel for what real DIY elk hunting in the Western mountains is like. May be this video holds a soft spot in my heart because I can 100% associate with the experience of these two guys (I have been in their shoes for more years than I care to admit when it comes to archery elk hunting), but more than that - I like that facts that their video is real and down to earth...

If you are interested, watch it and let’s hear what you think. I wish we had more of this kind of thing on the 'professional' level. But then again, videos on that level seem to be more about 'getting' than hunting.

[url]http://www.hybrid-outdoors.com/hunting-videos/montana-elk-hunting/[/url]

2.) Swamp Fox - 09/24/2015

It's got a good beat, and you can dance to it...

:tu:


I can think of three or four distinct types of hunting videos, and each is going to appeal more to hunters who are interested in or motivated by distinctly different things.

This is not to say that some or all of these interests and motivations can't coexist within the same hunter. For instance, the hunter who is inclined to watch hunting videos for drama (suspense, kill shot, cool music, interesting host, etc.) may not be the same hunter as the one who watches for scenery and videography, or story-telling, or to learn something (pro tips, etc. LOL).

But the same hunter could at least [I]appreciate [/I]all those things. Often, he won't appreciate them equally... And it's almost a sure thing that any random[I] two[/I] hunters are going to look at the same video differently.

To a certain extent, I think the pro-video vs. anti-video thing is about the same thing as the different stages each hunter goes through in his career. We're probably all familiar with the concept that there are distinct stages and self-descriptions of hunter motivation/type that at least a few people and studies have catalogued (the "numbers" hunter vs. the "nature" hunter vs. the "family" hunter vs. the "technique/skills" hunter, etc.) If two different kinds of hunters are in the same camp or---better example--in the same family, they don't necessarily think what motivates the other is "wrong" or bad for hunting. It's just not to their taste---at least not yet, or any more.

But we don't cut the same slack to videos, for whatever reason. Not a perfect analogy, I know, but maybe one that will suffice.

3.) Wild Bob - 09/24/2015

Other than the dancing thing, you bring up good points.

It's all relative, I guess, as is so much in our world.

One of the primary points that I'm trying to express (and I may have not done a very good job stating so I need to explain in more detail) is that in our culture, in this day and age...many people learn what they understand about any given topic from you tube and videos. Very few outdoorsmen or outdoorswomen are willing or interested in reading about Pope and Young, TR, Leopold, José Ortega y Gasset, Boone and Crockett or any other modern day hunting authority (not to be confused with celebrity...there is a big difference between the two in my book). Heck, most hunters today under the age of 40 don't even know who Jack O'Connor was...

What I'm getting at is that when the majority of the video examples most young hunters are taking in are polluted by greed and bloated egos...guess what we are going to reap the rewards of down the road. Now, you and I, can watch a video and understand that for that one big money shot, there were a lot of close calls, near misses, and waiting to get there (if they are actually doing it ethically and by fair chase, but that's another argument altogether).

Anyway, it’s irrelevant and probably 99% of anyone could care a less about debating or trying to understand this stuff.

But I don't care who you are...this stuff matters in the big picture and the future of hunting. And as our ranks shrink more and more, and the masses of urbanized /suburbanized 'cultural' folks out there continue to have [U]more[/U] and [U]more[/U] power to influence what we do...the seeds we sow as well as our actions will catch up with us. Even legitimate hunter's actions often get taken out of context and ridiculed, so why set things up to problematic by producing videos which can be used as an example to prove incidents of greed, excess and unethical behavior?

Ironically, as I type this, I just heard on the radio that You Tube is on its 10th anniversary today. (And I'm not picking on You Tube here, just to clarify.) I'm just frustrated with the quality of hunting videos and the state of whole hunter celebrity / reality shows that are being puked out.

Thanks for responding. I'll shut up now, hopefully before I get accused of being a rambling lunatic.

4.) Swamp Fox - 09/24/2015

There are some good hunting videos/production companies out there but you have to look for them. Maybe the way you do that is to quit watching stuff you don't like, hoping it's going to get better, LOL. Save the time to look for something else. :wink

I don't watch a lot of videos for whatever reason, so when I do go looking for something worthwhile and am successful it tends to be complete fluke, LOL...Maybe somebody has a better system...Getting recommendations from friends comes to mind, since everyone's a critic...:wink


[I]Dr. Niles Crane: You just can't stand it that my opinion means more than yours. That the arts community looks to me for my insight, my approval, my thumbs-up.

Dr. Frasier Crane: I think we both know what your thumb's up these days!



[/I]


:wink


Sitka makes and sponsors some good videos. Look them up on youtube... This one below has made the rounds on the forums as have some of his trailers. I haven't seen an entire DVD but I doubt there would be much to object to.

Another more-than-decent "short" by another guy whose name I don't remember, titled [I]Searching for West [/I], is viewable in its entirety on youtube.

So youtube isn't the problem, LOL---Not that you said it was---It could be a door-opener, in fact. Point being: It's not some videos that are the problem...It's some hunters that are the problem. And that has always been the case.

I'll argue all day long with someone who says we need more hunters or hunting is going to die. We don't need more hunters. We need [I]better[/I] hunters, or hunting is going to die.


So maybe if people come across good hunting videos, they should let others know, as you did.

It takes just a little more effort to share something you like than to start an AT rant about something you don't. Just sayin'. :wink

5.) Wild Bob - 09/25/2015

If one can't vent among compadres...what can one do?

Bottle it up and do unhealthy things to cope - that tends to be the way of the world... so they tell me.

Will check the ones you recommend.

Lastly, I will also try to share information in a "Kinder, gentler, kind of way." I will also check my shadow boxing at the door, lest I offend for believing in something.



LUV2! LUV! NOW SEND ME SOME OF THOSE DAM HAPPY PILLS WILL YOU!!

(Honestly, I'm still confused... How are we to debate any given topic, or is that taboo? Perhaps Alex could weigh in on this???)

6.) Swamp Fox - 09/25/2015

Piss on kinder gentler...That's not the BowCountry way....


LOL


In the immortal words of notorious tough guy Billy Joel..."Don't go changin' to try and please me..."


:wink

7.) Deerminator - 09/25/2015

:co:

8.) Swamp Fox - 09/25/2015

Wild Bob---

I realize I breezed past one of your points accidentally. I wrote a book on it last night, slept on it, let it steep some more while I drank coffee this morning, shuffled things around on my desk, put a dent in a project, had lunch, and now-- since the weather doesn't seem to be improving and I'm stuck inside anyway---I'll pull the trigger on it.


[QUOTE=Wild Bob;34771]... Even legitimate hunter's actions often get taken out of context and ridiculed, so why set things up to problematic by producing videos which can be used as an example to prove incidents of greed, excess and unethical behavior?

...
[/QUOTE]






First, can you (anyone) point me to or describe for me some of the videos or people that are examples of greed, excess and unethical behavior on camera so I have a point of reference? Are these common?

I think we can all come up with a list of things we don't like to see on the big (or little) screen, but how many of them fall into these three categories? Isn't it much more common to see "little things" we (many) don't like, such as contrived reactions, looped kill shots and hunter bad-assery? You don't have to be a fan of these "little things" to make a distinction between them and "examples of greed, excess and unethical behavior," right? Isn't it true that almost all of the really bad stuff, with a capital RB, happens off-camera, when and if it happens?

Moreover, I don't think we can do anything about our actions being taken out of context. If someone doesn't get what we're doing, or is willingly obtuse, the best we can do is explain a little along the way and hope it sinks in with the first group. As for the second, Ron White taught us all about that.

Trying to educate is not going to alter the thinking or behavior of those inclined to have their knives out for us just because. It's more than a little naive (though admirably hopeful) to think the thoroughly marinated anti-hunter is going to come to respect us just because we show him (her?) "a day in the life."

So the way I look at it, antis don't get a vote about what I do, on camera or off. I'm really, really clear about what's right and what's wrong in my own head and heart, thank you very much. .

I'm more concerned with the "casual" anti (the guy who thinks he's anti, but who is willing to learn, or at least to live and let live) and with the neutral non-hunter, and with the hunter or meat-eater who thinks he's being supportive, but only because eating what you kill makes everything alright.

(Regarding the last category, by the way, don't spend a lot of time reading blogs or comments sections of the "compassionate carnivore" or "kill your own meat" movement---yes, apparently it's a movement---unless you're willing to be assaulted by moose-sized doses of amateurishness and pretension. There are more than a few self-proclaimed hunters there who are so enlightened (evolved?) that they endorse only hunting that results in a yummy clean-protein meal. Which makes me wonder how much they really know about hunting....but I digress. You might have guessed that the majority of meat-eating non-hunters circulating in this movement's universe are cheerleaders for this narrow definition of "justifiable" hunting as well. With friends like this...)

One other thought occurs to me: If you're a non-hunter, or merely a casual hunter, about the only way you're going to see a hunting video is if someone more experienced shows it to you, or an anti shows you a selectively edited production designed to manipulate you.

In the first case, the experienced hunter can and should walk the newbie through what he is seeing. In the second case, what're you gonna do?

Since committed antis are invariably crusaders while hunters tend not to be (preferring to let everyone decide for themselves what they chose to eat and how they spend their time--what a concept!) the answer is not to alter our innocent, legitimate, defensible behavior or stifle ourselves, but to help the non-hunter navigate the issue, just as we had to.

We've all had to think about what we do, what we will and will not do. We know more about what it means to hunt than anyone else does. Why is it so hard for us to take a seat at the table and lead, instead of letting non-hunters and anti-hunters define the "conversation"?

(BTW, I love the term "conversation." You notice we're constantly talking about stuff, but the usual suspects always say we need a conversation. I guess it's not a conversation if you're just talking, rather than bending to their will. I say shut up already, and leave me alone.)

I think there's potential that some hunting videos can play a part in hunters taking the lead. I suppose that's one reason we should actively support those we think are well done. Conversely, I think the producers of videos we don't like so much eventually get the message, if they are in the competitive marketplace. The question is what takes up the space they leave behind? If it's 20 year-olds on youtube, God help us, but it doesn't have to be.

9.) Wild Bob - 09/25/2015

"First, can you (anyone) point me to or describe for me some of the videos or people that are examples of greed, excess and unethical behavior on camera so I have a point of reference? Are these common?"

Response: Of course we are not going to see blatant examples of that on the shows...I argue that perhaps more importantly these show hosts [I]actions [/I]come to light after the fact, off of camera. (The world is an illusion is it not, even off the screen!) I posted a very recent example of this last week involving Alwine "Trophy State of Mind" in his show. Read between lines; his show/what is occuring to him in real life. Other examples; how often do we hear of other hunting show hosts committing violations...I hear of them often, then again choose to pay attention to these matters.


"So the way I look at it, antis don't get a vote about what I do, on camera or off. I'm really, really clear about what's right and what's wrong in my own head and heart, thank you very much. ."

Response: I agree with you on one level here...but on another, the world is changing and antis are going to out number us 10 to 1 before we know it (if they don't already). I read a statistic the other day that stated that only 7% of the general public hunts any more. I don't agree with that number (I think its bogus); but none the less, the general public reading that will most likely not know enough to not take it as truthful. At some point, whether we like it or not, we are going to have to play the PR game and it certainly will not hurt our own cause to police the shit our own put out there right now.

"One other thought occurs to me: If you're a non-hunter, or merely a casual hunter, about the only way you're going to see a hunting video is if someone more experienced shows it to you, or an anti shows you a selectively edited production designed to manipulate you."

Response: I respectfully disagree with you on this comment. This is the day and age of Internet TV platforms; You-Tube rules (just ask any one under 30). The videos are readily available and all walks of people watch things. It is human nature to be curious about issues and controversial practices, many people tend to do a certain amount of self educating on any given topic. My point is do we want to educate the masses by showing them a positive image video, or one that makes even a seasoned hunter wince? That is a choice that if we are not careful, we will piss away and hurt our own cause.

"We've all had to think about what we do, what we will and will not do. We know more about what it means to hunt than anyone else does. Why is it so hard for us to take a seat at the table and lead, instead of letting non-hunters and anti-hunters define the "conversation"?

Response: Precisely! That is part of the point I am trying to make in regards to hunting videos. We can lead (by setting a good example and producing quality videos with a message doesn't damage the image of hunting, or be led by producers that go for the make a buck pay-off (no pun intended).

"I think there's potential that some hunting videos can play a part in hunters taking the lead. I suppose that's one reason we should actively support those we think are well done."

Response: Amen to that. Please don't beat me up for supporting this concept.

"The question is what takes up the space they leave behind? If it's 20 year-olds on YouTube, God help us, but it doesn't have to be."

Response: The sheer number (population) of these folks will seal the deal is also part of the point I'm trying to make. Here's an analogy to that: 45 years ago, most middle aged adults were saying, "God help," us when they listened to the first Led Zeppelin releases. Here we are today and we have Led Zeppelin for background music on Cadillac TV commercials. See... I am looking at the inevitable tide of an aging generation. Its going to happen (there is no way around it, and I not implying that there is) I’m only saying that what we show them, how we influence them, will have an affect on the perceptions of both hunting and non-hunting people alike.

I sincerely believe that if we don't think about matters such as these and consider them, then we are burying our head in the sand. We are doing precisely what many our political leaders often do; thinking short term and kicking the can down the road, thus sealing the fate of this to come on this matter.

Your stump, or may be someone else would like to step up…

(This could easily turn into an Epic Rap Battle of history...:-) )

10.) Swamp Fox - 09/25/2015

Agreed with most, possibly even all of that. Just a few points of emphasis:

Since we were on the topic of videos, I was trying to zero in on bad behavior that happens on video.

Second, no argument from me that self-policing "wont hurt." And no argument that we shouldn't be conscious of PR.

Fair point also about who has access to hunting videos, but I would suggest that if you don't already have a little bit of an axe to grind, you're not out looking for them. I don't care what goes on in Bolivia, therefore I never look for Bolivian videos. If somebody hears the "murder" of Cecil the Lion is the worst thing to happen in the animal kingdom EVER, do you think he's going to look at hunting videos to judge for himself? No, he's going to go first and probably last to places that put that idea in his head to begin with, in his quest to "self-educate." LOL...Antis don't arrive in the comments sections of pro-hunting websites or posts to learn anything. They go there to rant.

I agree we shouldn't give them more ammunition, but what legitimately constitutes "more ammunition" is not what is in most hunting videos. A fist-bump or a celebratory whoop is not a point against us. It's an empty talking point seized on by people pre-disposed to dislike us, and who don't generally have a cogent argument that supports their anti-hunting prejudice.

11.) Swamp Fox - 09/25/2015

Let me drive my point home.

There is absolutely nothing wrong in this video, nothing to clean up or self-police.

So, look at the comments section. :re:

12.) bluecat - 09/25/2015

Really enjoyed the video. It took forever to watch it as everytime I pulled it up, my boss would stroll in...

Those are the videos I enjoy most. Just humble people sharing their hunt.

13.) Swamp Fox - 09/25/2015

LOL....Yeah, Wild Bob's a real optimist posting a 25-minute video on here :wink...I would like to have an attention span greater than a goldfish, but often, I do not...LOL...I think the internet has made it worse...

:tap:

14.) Wild Bob - 09/26/2015

That's not fair Swampy...I only watch Bolivian porn; NOT Bolivian hunting videos.

15.) Wild Bob - 09/26/2015

[QUOTE=bluecat;34802]Really enjoyed the video. It took forever to watch it as everytime I pulled it up, my boss would stroll in...

Those are the videos I enjoy most. Just humble people sharing their hunt.[/QUOTE]

:groan: Why didn't just say it that way...then I wouldn't have been flogged with a wet noodle!

16.) bluecat - 09/26/2015

[QUOTE=Wild Bob;34804]That's not fair Swampy...I only watch Bolivian porn; NOT Bolivian hunting videos.[/QUOTE]

Kinky

17.) DParker - 09/26/2015

[QUOTE=bluecat;34807]Kinky[/QUOTE]

Did he stampede a herd of cattle through the Vatican?

18.) Swamp Fox - 09/26/2015

It doesn't matter, as long as he brought enough gum for everyone...LOL

19.) Wild Bob - 09/27/2015

Yep...Fruit Stripe for everyone; it's the gum me and Michael Waddell chew. :re:

20.) Swamp Fox - 09/27/2015

Was it hard to get on the Pro Staff?


LOL

21.) Wild Bob - 09/28/2015

No it wasn't hard, all I had to do was not be argumentative...

They told me anytime I had an issue with something to just take a deep breath, don't rant, pop some corn, call the boys up, invite them over for a nice little sit down in a circle jerk fashion, and immediately realize that what ever issue I was perceiving...it didn't matter unless it came from the collective group. :re:

Hmmmmm...it seemed a lot like socialism with a healthy does of dictatorship mixed in to me.

So, you know what I did? I chewed up all the fruit stripe, spit it out, and been doing my own thing ever since.

22.) Swamp Fox - 09/28/2015

[I]Bob Wiley: ...baby step onto the elevator... baby step into the elevator... I'm *in* the elevator.

[doors close]

Bob Wiley: AHHHHHHHHHHHH!
[/I]



:-)

23.) Wild Bob - 09/28/2015

Just for the record Sherlock...my initial post was not an AT rant.

If that's what you want, I can certainly produce one...but I don't do that. However, if you are accusing me of thinking for myself and believing in something that may not be the most popular view...then line up and take a number.

Don't like it, ban me.